Nordic Equinox 2007 - the rules

General conversation about anything, hopefully even slightly related to padded-weapon fighting.
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Beatific
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Nordic Equinox 2007 - the rules

Viesti Kirjoittaja Beatific » Sunnuntai, 29.07.2007 09:09

Hello,

I was wondering whether there already exists a(n english) version of the NE2007 rules?

(Keisari_P has linked the Jurioo 2007 rules on the Finnish side to give some idea of what to expect).

I've read them through, and some questions that have come to mind at this point are:
- Gambesons as armour? There's no mention of these in the Jurioo rules
- 'No metal as Shield base material' - what about Small-Furry-Animal-Fence (minkkiverkko - sorry, no translation comes to mind that would do the job...)? There were many of these at SH'07 of the tower shield variety; a couple with Rämä (black ones with the Alberga Assassins logo) and several with Entalia (black). A safe design, but due to the flexibility of the base material, the look of a large shield is somewhat a compromise...)
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Dan
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Viesti Kirjoittaja Dan » Maanantai, 30.07.2007 10:46

If you could provide some pictures of this kind of "minkkiverkko" (yes, we understand what it means perfectly, in our country it is called "jänesevõrk") construction, then the topic around these shields would be clearer.
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Viesti Kirjoittaja Archibald » Maanantai, 30.07.2007 11:05

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Bernard
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Viesti Kirjoittaja Bernard » Maanantai, 30.07.2007 12:41

Official preliminary information:

Gambeson armor points? - Not known at the moment, discussion about armor points still going on. If Yes then probably 1 point. Not known at the moment.

Shields from mesh wire fence? - If padded as you do Yes. By "no metal" is meant heavy solid metal base for shields (like sheet metal). Shields should not be "too heavy". All shields I saw used at Sotahuuto will also qualify in Estonia.
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s_kettu
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Viesti Kirjoittaja s_kettu » Tiistai, 31.07.2007 10:35

I`d like to know will our weapons do? And if they wont is it posible to borrow yours? If you cant loan your weapons would it be posible to give us the instructions how to make ones that will be accepted?
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Bernard
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Viesti Kirjoittaja Bernard » Tiistai, 31.07.2007 12:25

Discussion about your weapons is still going on. If we decide to not allow them, then you can borrow weapons from us (we have more than enough).

BTW. Your arrows and throwing spears already conform to our weapon standards (and you can reuse them in battle), so the questions is only about solid hand-held weapons (which at the moment are too heavy for our rules).
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Mahti
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Viesti Kirjoittaja Mahti » Tiistai, 31.07.2007 12:57

Too heavy? I have always thought that the boffers are usually way too light :D

What materials are you using for your weapons?
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Bernard
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Viesti Kirjoittaja Bernard » Tiistai, 31.07.2007 14:27

Much thinner PVC and less (but still enough) padding.

Small weight makes them safe. For one thing, you can not swing a light object hard enough to injure another, and the other thing - if you somehow manage to swing it hard enough, it will break before something serious is broken in the target.

Therefore we have a set weight restriction on weapons. At the moment it is for example 150grams maximum for weapons up to 1m length (e.g. swords, axes etc.)

But it is too early to say, if we find a way to allow your (safe) boffers without giving others the opportunity to build heavy (unsafe) ones - then there won't be a problem at all.

Of course we could make an exception for you, but I rather believe in firmly set rules for everybody, rather than bunch of exceptions and subjective rulings by game masters.

At the moment lets wait and see.
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Beatific
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Viesti Kirjoittaja Beatific » Lauantai, 11.08.2007 22:11

What happened with the Gambeson-yes-or-no-armor-points? I guess none, since there's no mention of it?
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Bernard
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Viesti Kirjoittaja Bernard » Sunnuntai, 12.08.2007 02:08

Unfortunately you are right - no armor points for gambesons or thick clothing.

We also use a downgraded armor point system to give the less armored people a fighting chance and speed up play (while still giving SOME bonus for running around in chain-mail and not shorts and T-Shirt). If you compare with "Jüriöö" rules, for example, there the maximum is up to 8 points of armor, at NE07 we give only 5 points max.

But you must consider that even this little is five times more than at Sotahuuto AND our armor points also count when hit in the back (and wearing helmet protects body parts not covered with armor with its points) - so "human torpedoes" are dealt with quite easily.

---

While we are at it - we are going to make an exception with your weapons and allow them, provided they are not INSANELY heavy - please don't add weights (like bolts in the pommel for balancing purposes or etc.) and if at all possible remove the ones you already have added.

We are going to check them meticulously but we are going to allow them. To speed up and ease the process, a good rule of the thumb for your workshops would be: "the lighter the better".
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Beatific
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Viesti Kirjoittaja Beatific » Maanantai, 13.08.2007 10:27

OK, no gambeson. Luckily there's lots of stuff left in the closet :)

But, I'm having a little trouble figuring out how calculate (that is, to max out :) ) my armour points using the system, and would not want to carry extra stuff all the way to Kassinurme.

Once I'll figure out a way to describe in a visual, concise and precise way what I'm planning to wear, I'll get back to you - in this thread, so that others may also learn from the discussion...
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Bernard
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Viesti Kirjoittaja Bernard » Tiistai, 14.08.2007 21:32

The best way to do it is wear a metal helmet (sorry no plastic) with sufficient face protection.

Not only is it relatively small and light, compared to other pieces of 2-point armor but it protects the WHOLE body, even the spots not covered with body armor. So wearing it, basically means having 4 hit points all together.

Since maximum is 5 points of armor, you only need to worry about the remaining 3.

IMHO the best bet would be 1.2mm metal plates riveted to a leather backing - relatively flexible and if the plates are big enough (say, 10cm or more in length and 5cm or more in width), they don't even have to overlap completely. Still, best not to use dermantine (artificial leather) or too thin leather. If the leather used as backing is 2mm or more, there won't be any question about giving you 3 AP for it.

But since it would most likely mean constructing a whole new set of armor, you'd might go for chain-mail or scale.

A chain made of 2mm thick wire and 9mm or less inner diameter of the ring, will give you the necessary 3 armor points. Or a scale armor, made from 1mm thick plates, overlapping.
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Futhark
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Viesti Kirjoittaja Futhark » Keskiviikko, 15.08.2007 07:28

Chainmail with 2mm wire and 9mm inner diameter? Here in Finland quite many chainmails are made with 2mm/10mm or 1,6mm/8mm. Is the 9mm diameter in common use in Estonia? Im interested :)
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Viesti Kirjoittaja ZamboNet » Keskiviikko, 15.08.2007 09:58

If if got it right, that 2mm/9mm gives you the max 3 ap. Less dense chainmail also gives AP, but not as much. Or am I totally wrong?
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Bernard
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Viesti Kirjoittaja Bernard » Keskiviikko, 15.08.2007 12:52

No it is not common, common is 2mm/10mm and 2mm/8mm.

ZamboNet, you are totally correct.

If the ring size is less than 5 times the size of the wire then you get the maximum HP.

2/10 would give 2 points. The same goes for 1.6/8

10/2 = 5 (1:5 ratio = 2 AP)
8/1.6 = 5 (1:5 ratio = 2 AP)

9/2 = 4,5 (less than 1:5 ratio = 3 AP),
8/2 = 4 (less than 1:5 ratio = 3 AP)
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Beatific
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Viesti Kirjoittaja Beatific » Keskiviikko, 15.08.2007 16:51

I guess wearing plate on top of the chain counts as well? For example, pauldrons, breastplate, etc.?

It's a pity gambeson's don't help "in-game", since they offer probably the best protection against "out-of-game hazards", so to speak.
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Mahti
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Viesti Kirjoittaja Mahti » Torstai, 16.08.2007 03:14

Offering armour points for gambeson would also be historical. Leather armour would have to be quite thick to be equivalent of a gambeson. Otherwise the rules seemed quite good and clear. I'm intending to wear chainmail with metal cuirass on top. How the points are calculated in this case?
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Beatific
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Viesti Kirjoittaja Beatific » Perjantai, 17.08.2007 11:43

Some discussion about our experiences on getting used to to Estonian rules here:
http://forum.sotahuuto.fi//viewtopic.php?p=29653#29653

(In Finnish; but I guess some of you can read it still, so I wanted to give pointer)
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Bernard
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Viesti Kirjoittaja Bernard » Perjantai, 17.08.2007 12:30

Mahti - to calculate armor points for different armor pieces worn together, take the average for all pieces combined and round it up.

For excample, wearing a 2 point chain-mail and a 3 point plate would give:

2+3=5 / 2 = 2.5, rounded up = 3 armor points.

---

Beatific

You are mostly correct as far as I can understand you.

You should try to do some group battles too, before coming, to get the feel of it (and fall in love with your armor :twisted:).
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saloneju
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Viesti Kirjoittaja saloneju » Lauantai, 18.08.2007 10:44

So the calculation doesn't pay regard to how much the certain armour covers of the body? I.e. if I wear a helmet of the same design Vishnas used in Sotahuuto, 1ap-giving loose-knitted hauberk and small 3 ap-giving metal armors to both forearms and legs, would I still be getting five armour points* everywhere?



*If the parts of the armour are equal then:
(3+3+3+3+1)/5 + 2 = 2,6 + 2 ~ 5.
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JonTzu
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Viesti Kirjoittaja JonTzu » Lauantai, 18.08.2007 11:01

Bernard: Do the rules make a difference between riveted and butted chain mailles?
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Bernard
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Viesti Kirjoittaja Bernard » Sunnuntai, 19.08.2007 18:40

No, unfortunately they don't. I know it's unfair but we are trying to keep the AP low and not give special bonuses on this specific event.

---

Mmmm, not entirely correct Saloneju. It counts only different armor types not specific pieces.

With your example, you have 2 ARMOR TYPES on you, 1 AP loose knitted chain and 3AP plate, so the average would be:

1+3 = 4/2 = 2AP + helmet.
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saloneju
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Viesti Kirjoittaja saloneju » Sunnuntai, 19.08.2007 19:35

Bernard kirjoitti:Mmmm, not entirely correct Saloneju. It counts only different armor types not specific pieces.

With your example, you have 2 ARMOR TYPES on you, 1 AP loose knitted chain and 3AP plate, so the average would be:

1+3 = 4/2 = 2AP + helmet.
Ah, understood. Thanks!
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JonTzu
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Viesti Kirjoittaja JonTzu » Sunnuntai, 19.08.2007 21:09

Bernard kirjoitti:No, unfortunately they don't. I know it's unfair but we are trying to keep the AP low and not give special bonuses on this specific event.
Okay, I won't be taking the riveted one. Thank you for a quick reply.
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Beatific
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Viesti Kirjoittaja Beatific » Maanantai, 20.08.2007 10:13

Here's my best guess on how the AP system works:

a)
A person is wearing plate gauntlets (3p), leather leg greaves (1p), and a 10/2mm chain "t-shirt" (2p)

=> 2 AP everywhere where he has armour. Correct?

b)
If the leather leg greaves are left out of the above example, the person has 3AP on the areas covered by the chain t-shirt and the gauntlets (and of course no AP on the legs). Correct?

Then, another question: Is the foot (i.e. the shoe) a valid target for hits? I guess yes but just to make sure, this was not, if I recall correctly, explicitly mentioned in the rules.
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