Estonian flail standards

Conversation prior to Sotahuuto 2007 and feedback afterwards.
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Beatific
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Estonian flail standards

Viesti Kirjoittaja Beatific » Lauantai, 14.04.2007 00:26

Something which has generated a lot of discussion (the thread is five pages long and the conversation is not really converging yet) is the legitimacy of (different kinds of) flails and ball-and-chain weapons.

Without getting into the details at our end, what do your rules say about such weapons?
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Viesti Kirjoittaja Bernard » Lauantai, 14.04.2007 01:32

Allowed. Must be safe.

Rules applied to flails and other weapons with movable parts.

* Weapon length is measured with the movable parts straightened.
* Weapon must conform to weight restrictions according to its length.
* Smallest width of a movable part has to be over 5cm.
* Links between movable parts have to be made of boffer material.
* The links can be reinforced with rope or leather but the reinforcement has to be inside the boffer material and not visible.
* GM's reserve the right of criticism towards weapons with movable parts. When in doubt, the GM can deem the weapon unsafe with no further explanation.


All in all it means that you can build any weapon with movable parts, you desire, but do so at your own peril - if the GM doesn't like your face or your weapon, he can disallow it with no explanations and nowhere to appeal to.

Not the most graceful solution, but it seems to work.
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Viesti Kirjoittaja Keisari_P » Lauantai, 14.04.2007 02:03

Bernard allready gave some info about Estonian flails in "Estonian weapon standards" thread.
Keisari_P kirjoitti:Do you have rules for flails and morningstars? This is topic has fierce depate going on at the moment.
Bernard kirjoitti:Flail/Morningstar - a club, a chain attached to it, a (spiked) ball attached to the chain.

The length of the weapon is measured with the chain pulled straight. The weight of the weapon is limited just as any other weapon according to length:

Weapon weight restriction, according to length (the most restricted version):
< 50 cm - 100 grams
50 – 100 cm - 150 grams
100 – 150 cm - 300 grams
150 – 200 cm - 500 grams
> 200 cm - 800 grams

The chain has to be made using boffer material.
In Finland the biggest debate is about:
-Should the maximum lengt of the chain be restricted (to about 30cm)
-Should flails be banned all together, but allow short ball-and-chains.

Main differences between flails and ball-and-chain's:
- Ball-and-chain is shorter. The ball is* heavier thain object hanging at the end of the flails chain. *would be in real weapon
- Flail is longer (maybe even 2m when pulled strait), hitting object is lighter.
- Flail is a farming tool, not a war weapon like ball-and-chain.

This leads to broblem with simulatin the weapon damage. All hits from boffers are considered fatal. With autentic flail, only full blast hits (full 180 degree over the shoulder hits) would be fatal. Long light flail can be bounced arond in very fast phace with light 45 degree hits. The hits are difficult to parry, but still all the light hits should be counted as fatal.
Ball-and-chain's are shorter and therefore the light ball doesn't create as unrealistic simulation.
Because of unrealistic damage simulation blunt boffer "staff" has been banned entirely as it would be impossible to determin which hit was lethal and which was not, and it would be unrealistic to count them all as lethal.

I personally would ban flails all together, restrict maximum length of ball-and-chain to 1m (when pulled strait). This would keep the fight fair and a bit more realistic.

Kuva
FLAIL

Kuva
ball-and-chain "Morningstar"
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Viesti Kirjoittaja Beatific » Lauantai, 14.04.2007 08:22

Keisari_P kirjoitti: - Flail is a farming tool, not a war weapon like ball-and-chain.
Again this argument comes up! :lol: Once more, this time in English - there have been military flails - which indeed have evolved from farming tools. Historically, a two-handed footman's flail may have been quite long indeed, with 2m not being an exaggeration.

I believe the main reason some of us want to ban flails altogether is that they are considered "too good a weapon". Mainly this may be the case with 1.2-1.7m long flails that are light enough to be wielded single-handedly, together with a shield. Such weapons are as long as (or even longer than) common 2-handed weapons, but look deceptively shorter. Thus, they have a considerable advantage against a shorter, single-handed weapon + shield -combinations (which is by far the most common combo).

Another flail, this time of the kind that the most fierce debate seems to be about:
Kuva
(this particular image is of oriental design - however, Europeans have used war flails as well)
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Viesti Kirjoittaja Bernard » Lauantai, 14.04.2007 12:12

That is exactly the point why we measure flail lengths (and usability with one-two hands) by pulling the moving parts straight - no deception there any more. If it's over 1.1 meters it has to be used two-handedly.

I wont comment on the argument about historic correctness.

Flails and ball-and-chains are not more difficult to parry as other weapons - takes getting used to, but if you do, you can use the unpredictability of the weapon against its wielder.

Because of the severe weight reduction, most long flails are too light to be wielded effectively. Therefore the length of the weapon governs itself.

They have been used in Estonia but are considered more stylish than effective. Most heavy armored and well trained phalangers will spike up on their pilums or cut to pieces with their short swords any who is stupid enough to wield his uncontrollable mess of moving things against their solid shields.
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Viesti Kirjoittaja Beatific » Lauantai, 14.04.2007 12:41

Bernard kirjoitti:If it's over 1.1 meters it has to be used two-handedly.
Well well! This seems very close to my first suggestion to the trouble with flails from the finnish-speaking thread (although I left the exact length open for discussion)!

So it seems that your culture is advanced, indeed! :lol:

My suggestion to deal with the problem of "flails being too good" was that there would be a ban on using shield or another weapon with chain-weapons over certain length; however, should the flail-wielder lose one hand, he could still continue with the other.

I also raised the question whether the same restriction should be applied to any weapons over certain length (not including spears) - and my initial assumption was that the length limit might as well be the same regardless of weapon type.

But, so far this direction has not received much support. Let me ask, how did you arrive at this conclusion, and why was the 1.1m deemed suitable?
Also, do you have similar restrictions on other weapons? Or any other thoughts on the matter?

I still hold the opinion that it might be a good idea to ban shield use in combination with weapons over certain length (don't know about spears, though; probably would not apply to them, since it's a historical combo). Otherwise, people'll just start building longer and lighter single-handed swords... unless of course we'll start having weight restrictions.
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Viesti Kirjoittaja sentius » Lauantai, 14.04.2007 16:49

The 1.1 m rule kind of evolved on it's own, as a certain measurement was needed to keep one-handed and two-handed swords apart, a 1.1m longsword boffer just seemed reasonable and the ruling has served us well.

About flails and ball-on-chains: tried and tested, but the uncontrollability is a nuisance, mostly the opponent closes in, maybe taking a hit or two, and cuts the flailman into pieces - in short range fighting a flail is quite bad.

Also we have a Golden One Meter Rule, which states that for any weapon to cause enough damage to take a HP, it's tip has to move 1m first. In close quarters fighting this rule is very difficult to adhere to when using weapons with moving parts.

My advice - allow ALL safe weapons, but stick to the 1.1m one-handed-two-handed rule.
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Viesti Kirjoittaja Bernard » Lauantai, 14.04.2007 17:07

Sentius is right. The rules and regulations mostly have evolved by "trial and error", there have been ennumerous arguments, feuds, total failures and great triumphs. Nowadays the arguments have died down mostly because everybody agrees, you shouldnt try to fix something thats working.

In Estonia, any weapon you could use one handedly, you can use in combination with a shield.

Aslo we have a somewhat archaic rule that you can use two one handed weapons (one in each hand) only if their added length is the same or lesser as your actual height. But this rule has lately been not so closely observed.

The lengths go as such

5 - 100 cm one handed.
100 - 110 hand-and-a-half (can be used one handedly, class just there for certain game mechanics in some more elaborate systems)
110-230 Length of any two handed weapon except spears

Maximum length for two handed swords is 180 cm

One handed spear, pilum or javelin 110-160cm

Two-handed spear 160 - infinity cm

---

The length is always measured as a total (handles and decorations included), and as said before, when a weapon has movable parts, they are pulled straight for measuring.
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Viesti Kirjoittaja Beatific » Sunnuntai, 15.04.2007 22:39

Very interesting! Currently, the Sotahuuto context does not have explicit rules for weapon handedness, and so far there have mostly been arguments in favor of not imposing any restrictions here. For myself, I am inclined to think that 'handedness rules' would probably steer the overall choice of weapons towards "realism". I also believe that 1.1m is actually pretty close to what I would suggest myself; my thoughts on such a limit have been between 1 and 1.2m before I heard about your rules.

Also, although there is discussion about what kinds of (e.g. consequent) hits should count as legitimate, we do not yet have anything explicit like your 'golden one meter rule'. (I guess your golden one meter rule does not apply to thrusting?) With the "1m rule", I can see that flails will further become slightly less effective.

In my own clan, the "Assasins of Alberga", (consequent) hits have to be so clear and "hard" that they would be without a doubt counted as hits on their own; otherwise it does not matter how much the tip moves, or how quickly they follow each other. So far I've been pretty happy with this.
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Viesti Kirjoittaja sentius » Sunnuntai, 15.04.2007 23:11

The 1m tip movement rule was made to dissallow quick successive hits to the same area, or "tapping" - quick and weak, unrealistic blows. You can hit the same place quickly even with the rule, as the tip of the weapon has to move a trajectory of 1m, it moves away from the target 0,5m and then back 0,5m, making such a blow legal.

Actually mostly we regard a hit that is properly felt as worth taking a HP. Hits to the costume, slipping or utterly weak, or in some other way not targeted nor properly executed, are disregarded by most players. All in all I predict our hit counting will be nearly identical to your's, I don't anticipate any problems in this area.

The fact that your rules will allow using two'hander's with shields seems somewhat odd - but that's more of a discussion topic for the evening in the sauna, we will adapt to any and all of your rules.
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Viesti Kirjoittaja Beatific » Maanantai, 16.04.2007 08:41

Same here regarding proper hits. The part about tapping just has not yet been addressed on the 'national scale' with an explicit rule.

Then another thing; you talk of hit points (HP)? E.g.
...maybe taking a hit or two, and cuts the flailman into pieces.
Do you use hit points besides / in addition to the armor point? I'll explain more thoroughly if needed!
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Viesti Kirjoittaja sentius » Maanantai, 16.04.2007 10:15

We have many different rulesets, but most commonly we use a combination of Hit Points and Armor Points (HP, AP). Usually all characters have 1HP, with warriors posessing and additional HP in the limbs. Armor gives AP's to the area that the armor actually covers, with different armor giving different amounts of AP's (Leather armor 2-3, chainmail usually 5...and so on, differs somewhat between rulesets).

AP's are used up before HP's when taking hits, naturally. Reaching HP=0 usually means you're unconcious, but not dead. Killing a character means holding a weapon to his unconcious body and slowly counting to 10 in a loud voice. This imitates the deathcries of the victim, the 10sec rule prevents excessive death toll, simulates non-mortal injuries and gives healers a chance to roleplay their characters (we mostly have cleric/herbalist characters also, as larp and boffering are tightly intertwined in estonia).

As characters survive and progress through a larp series, they can use XP to give them more abilities, including more HP. This makes players take better care of their characters and react in a more real life, common sense way, preventing players from becoming mindless berserkers with no fear from death.
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