Estonian weapon standards

Conversation prior to Sotahuuto 2007 and feedback afterwards.
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Keisari_P
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Estonian weapon standards

Viesti Kirjoittaja Keisari_P » Keskiviikko, 11.04.2007 03:40

From what I have seen from Youtube boffering videos, Finnish weapon standards are very strict compared to foreing standards. We might learn a few things from Estonian and other foreing standards. In Finland the safety is priority.

I would like to know what kind of standards you use in Estonia? For comparison I give some Finnish standards that are generally accepted, although final rules for Sotahuuto 2007 are not out yet!

What kind of minumum padding you have for spears?
Do you have rules for flails and morningstars? This is topic has fierce depate going on at the moment.

Padding
You seem to use only one layer of badding in weapons. You don't seem to have soft thrusting tips in your weapons, or do you?

Picture of (my) Finnish boffersword thrusting tip padding: (about 7-8cm superlon)
Kuva

Structure and materials
What materials you allow in the structure?
PVC and Bamboo seem to be allowed in Estonia. How long bamboo has been allowed, and has there been any hazards? In Finland bamboo hasn't been used in boffers so far.
How about fiberglass? In Finland we are having fierce debate about the safety of fiberglass spears and weapons. Here fiberglass has so far been banned material in general. The main arguments against fiberglass has been unsafe breaking (which in my opinion is busted as a myth, atleast for "Excel 30" serie fiberblass pipes) and the fact that fiberglass is so hard the it might break bones without bending or broking first.

Picture of broken fiberglass tube (broken for test purpose):
Kuva
more pictures

Shields
In Finland shilds must have waterhose in edges to make sure the edges doesn't come thru the paddings. Here shield covers must also be padded safely (~50mm foam plastic (superlon) or ~10mm cellular plastic).
You don't seem to add padding to the covers of you shields, yet you seem to apply shield bashing.

Picture of shiel edge:
Kuva

So tell something about Estonian standards and how well they are working. Our standards are strict, but they enable full contact (including headshots and thrusting) with maximal safety.

PS.
More pictures related to Finnish boffer constructing and Sotahuuto 2006.
http://kuvablogi.com/blog/1904/6/
http://kuvablogi.com/blog/1904/1/
http://users.evtek.fi/~heikkima/
http://users.evtek.fi/~heikkima/SH06/

armour crafting:
http://kuvablogi.com/blog/1904/10/ (2007)
http://kuvablogi.com/blog/1904/5/ (2006)
Viimeksi muokannut Keisari_P, Torstai, 12.04.2007 01:23. Yhteensä muokattu 2 kertaa.
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Bernard
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Re: Estonian weapon standards

Viesti Kirjoittaja Bernard » Keskiviikko, 11.04.2007 04:54

Thank You so much for those pictures and explanations.

---

Disclaimer:

The following is just to share experience and satisfy curiosity. I wholly conform with Finnish weapon standards on a Finnish game.

All questions and suggestions I feel relevant to discuss, are directly discussed with the organizers of a specific event.

I will not participate in a public debate about rules. Still anticipating it, let me say right away: "I agree. You are right, I am wrong. Sorry."


---
Keisari_P kirjoitti:In Finland the safety is priority.
The same goes for us.

The main point in our weapon safety is mass. The impact force is a combination from the speed of the moving object and the mass of the moving object (also dissipation of force etc. but those two are the main factors). As a good example is a 3kg steel bar wrapped in 30cm of boffering - it would still knock a person out, just because the sheer mass of the object will increase the impact force despite the padding.

For us the padding is mostly to avoid bruises. Injuries and concussions are avoided by greatly restricting the maximum weight of weapons.
Keisari_P kirjoitti:What kind of minumum padding you have for spears?
At least 9mm padding on the shaft - nearly all shaft has to be covered (spears tend to swing and sometimes hit side wise)

At least 8cm width and 10cm padding on the tip.

The weight of the spear (all of it) can not exceed 800 grams.
Keisari_P kirjoitti:Do you have rules for flails and morningstars? This is topic has fierce depate going on at the moment.
Flail/Morningstar - a club, a chain attached to it, a (spiked) ball attached to the chain.

The length of the weapon is measured with the chain pulled straight. The weight of the weapon is limited just as any other weapon according to length:

Weapon weight restriction, according to length (the most restricted version):
< 50 cm - 100 grams
50 – 100 cm - 150 grams
100 – 150 cm - 300 grams
150 – 200 cm - 500 grams
> 200 cm - 800 grams


The chain has to be made using boffer material.
Keisari_P kirjoitti:You seem to use only one layer of padding in weapons. You don't seem to have soft thrusting tips in your weapons, or do you?
we do use soft tips. But less soft than you. No problems so far (5 years constant fighting 3-4 times a week) - even in full contact.
Keisari_P kirjoitti:Structure and materials
PVC, bamboo (not over 2cm thickness), Fiberglass (only full rods, no tubes).

A full rod of fiberglass "can" theoretically be broken. It has never happened though that someone managed to break it with striking (even without the padding). You have to use a steel saw to cut it.

When I'll come, I'll bring some samples.
Keisari_P kirjoitti:In Finland shilds must have waterhose in edges to make sure the edges doesn't come thru the paddings. Here shield covers must also be padded safely (~50mm foam plastic (superlon) or ~10mm cellular plastic).
You don't seem to add badding to the covers of you shields, yet you seem to apply shield bashing.
We had padded shields in the beginning, and for years it was only allowed to bash with padded ones. But the padding proved quite pointless (not starting an argument or going into detail). Now only those rules remain: the shield's edges have to be boffered or covered with thick leather (not to damage weapons), only the full front of the shield can be used for bashing, you can only bash with a shield which's width is above 60cm, you can only bash someone who also carries a shield. You can only bash from front (e.g. when wanting to bash from behind - tapping someone on the shoulder: "sir, sir, one moment of your time please" - turning: "what do you...." - BASH!!). And of course shield fronts can have no sharp or protruding details.

Keisari_P kirjoitti:So tell something about Estonian standards and how well they are working. Our standards are strict, but they enable full contact (including headshots and thrusting) with maximal safety.

Well - we have full contact combats (that includes martial arts and hand-to-hand combat also). Medium contact games and trainings with head-shots allowed are also more and more common. And thrusting is ALWAYS allowed.

Hmm... how well... let me see... last year we had an event where during the night (from 23:00 to 02:00) 180 fighters where storming a castle - with ladders, shields, spears, swords - all of them used wildly, with great force and without much aiming in the deeps of the night. During the 3 hour battle we had to tend only 2-3 bleeding noses from unlucky blows - that's it no more injuries (but countless broken weapons).

Usually we have no boffer related injuries during even major events. There have been some in the past, but reducing the weight of weapons has brought them down to nearly 0.


By now we have mostly dropped the discussions about weapons breaking, because most people notice it (even during night) and stop using their broken weapon immediately - even in the heat of battle.

---

In the end it always depends from the person wielding the weapon. A stupid, reckless individual, with the will to injure another (or the inability to prevent injuries) will do so even when using a paper towel.
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saloneju
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Viesti Kirjoittaja saloneju » Keskiviikko, 11.04.2007 13:51

The idea of weight-limits in weapons seems interesting. What does people here in Finland think of it?

Ps. The close-up / making of -pictures from your 2nd gen boffers mentioned in the welcome-thread would be nice to see!
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Viesti Kirjoittaja ZamboNet » Keskiviikko, 11.04.2007 13:52

Sounds like mass "elven swords" to me :D And with those restrictions many of our longer hitting weapons would be banned (halberds and such). And personally I think those weapons need to weight something in order to make them work more "realistic" way. If 2,5m halberd can weight only 800g, you can use it in rather unrealistically fast pace. But well, all in all, do we try to simulate real weapons with boffers? Maybe not.
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Viesti Kirjoittaja Gnomus » Keskiviikko, 11.04.2007 14:26

Actually, if we look at old Korpin-klaani's boffer rules, there is maksimum and minimum weights for weapons, depending on their lenght.

For striking weapons weight is quite critical. With spears and longer thrusting weapons more energy comes from users mass and flexibility of shaft is more important to keep pressure from hurting target.

Too light weopons make fighting look (and feel) absurd. Dificulty is finding weaponstructure that is safe, but somewhat resembles orginal weapons in usability. If it also looks as orginal, all the better, but looks is last of our worries after safety and usability.
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Bernard
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Viesti Kirjoittaja Bernard » Keskiviikko, 11.04.2007 14:33

Not really, we have halberds, naginatas, big axes, hammers etc. They CAN be made to conform with the weight restrictions.

We set the goal of actual battle reenactment only in full-contact larps in Estonia. There the weight reduction is lessened or removed - but most of all: "if you can not throw your enemy down and kick him in the face - it is not a realistic battle"

Most of the time we don't bother with discussions about "is it realistic or not". It's not realistic - if there are any safety rules at all, it's not and never's going to be a realistic battle.

So for us it is about having fun and playing it safely, most of the time. If we choose to play it rough (read realistically) believe me - the boffer safety will be the least of your problems ;)


Oh, I noticed your spear-length discussion. We don't have a spear length restriction, three simple reasons:

1. I becomes extensively harder to get long bamboo sticks over 3 meters (nearly impossible to obtain a 6 meter pole).
2. The length of the spears governs itself - too long spears are clumsy in battle and while having a good range, are easily rushed and most of the time hinder your own troops in front of you (also they are a nuisance to transport).
3. The longer the spear, the slower it becomes and the more strength it needs to wield it effectively.

For these reasons you see no spears over 3m length in Estonian games. Not because restrictions - you could have a 12m spear. But because longer spears just aren't practical.

Graceful solution however, rules are kept shorter, players feel more freedom and GM's can keep their quiet laughter on "how well their plan is working".
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Viesti Kirjoittaja Sorontur » Keskiviikko, 11.04.2007 14:43

saloneju kirjoitti: It would be nice to see some close up / making of -pictures from your 2nd gen type weapons! Seems like Keisari_P has already posted some pictures of Finnish weapons in the respective thread.
I went through the public galleries of our games and discovered that there are hardly any good pictures of 2nd gen weapons - probably because they aren't very common in battle-games (risk of breaking vs price) and in other types they tend to stay hidden. However, here are those few I found:

http://www.dragon.ee/albums/albun12/66_Naro.jpg - longsword and a knife(?)
http://www.dragon.ee/albums/album42/arv ... nimine.jpg - there are also few on the right
http://www.dragon.ee/albums/album44/02_ ... _07_27.jpg - an axe. Ignore the beard.
http://www.dragon.ee/albums/album57/31_ ... _ndama.jpg - the same longsword and the same guy as on the first picture
Viimeksi muokannut Sorontur, Keskiviikko, 11.04.2007 14:46. Yhteensä muokattu 1 kertaa.
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Viesti Kirjoittaja Bernard » Keskiviikko, 11.04.2007 14:46

I'll bring some samples of different Estonian weapons and common materials when I come.

Sorontur is right - there are hardly any good photos and none from construction phases. Construction is learned through oral means from master to student and so on.
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Viesti Kirjoittaja Sorontur » Keskiviikko, 11.04.2007 14:50

Well, that is not entirely true: Dan has written a guide for making 2nd/3rd gen weapons, though for some reason it's not publicly awailable any more. And there are several about making 1st gen's, though their adequacy is a bit dubious.
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Viesti Kirjoittaja Dan » Keskiviikko, 11.04.2007 14:57

I get it why latex weapons and these "2nd generation" boffers are banned from your games...

Some years ago i met with some finnish larpers and asked about their swords. They showed me some latex weapons. Difference was big - firstly, weapon cores were some ~2 cm from the tip of the weapon. Secondly, the fiber core was too flexible compared to our fiber cores - ours hardly bend and are quite lightweight compared to what i saw. Thirdly, the weapons material was somekind of heavy rubber foam. Polyurethane, they said to me. It was REALLY stiff and heavy.

It's quite complicated for me to make a 110 cm length latex sword that weights more than 400 grams, even if i put ~15-20 layers of latex on it.

If in organisers team there is someone who could measure the fiber rod Finns usually use from physics viewpoint, i would be interested, and could do the same measurements for comparison.

Sorontur: my guide to the 2ndgen boffers is currently down because of some out-to date info and server space restrictions. But seems that i'll have to update and put it back again.
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Viesti Kirjoittaja saloneju » Keskiviikko, 11.04.2007 15:22

Dan kirjoitti:I get it why latex weapons and these "2nd generation" boffers are banned from your games...

Some years ago i met with some finnish larpers and asked about their swords. They showed me some latex weapons. Difference was big - firstly, weapon cores were some ~2 cm from the tip of the weapon. Secondly, the fiber core was too flexible compared to our fiber cores - ours hardly bend and are quite lightweight compared to what i saw. Thirdly, the weapons material was somekind of heavy rubber foam. Polyurethane, they said to me. It was REALLY stiff and heavy.
That's true. I think the reason is that, latex-weapons here are made and used primarily for props in larp-games since they look drastically better than boffers. They're used mainly in larps where the fighting isn't a big deal but is slightly expected that such a thing will happen. Most commonly in a larps where it isn't very probable to occur any (or little) fights steel weapons are most commonly used. So as latex weapons here are made such as they can be used as a padded weapon when needed, but doesn't suit in the job very well, they're kind of compromise between boffer and steel, and not regarded as a convenient option for boffers in fighting events such as Sotahuuto.
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Viesti Kirjoittaja Bernard » Keskiviikko, 11.04.2007 15:35

It is differently in Estonia.

Here latex weapons are constructed especially for fighting - for they look much better and are more durable but just as safe as other boffers.

Again - prime concern is the weight.

Also if we turn our gaze further outwards - when I contacted the British and Germans about visiting their events en masse they were very grumpy about us bringing non-latex weapons.

Some people from our club have attended the biggest larp game on mainland Europe, the "Drachenfest" in Germany ant the biggest larp game in Europe, "Lorien Trust: The Gathering" in Britain. On both events (with thousands of participants) almost all used latex weapons. And extensively in combat.


Still - I am kind of glad that the Finnish larp has not evolved to that level (don't be mistaken, no offense is meant - Estonian larp isn't either). Otherwise it would be beyond our means to mass produce latex weapons for those numbers with whom we are trying to come.

Some latex work I and KEK have done.
http://www.dragon.ee/gallery/albun44
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Viesti Kirjoittaja ZamboNet » Keskiviikko, 11.04.2007 16:38

for they look much better and are more durable but just as safe as other boffers.
Well still i wouldn't like to recive a thrust to my eye from one of those (couldn't see the tips of those 2nd gen boffers, but from the frame i would assume they are not much blunter either). Other than that i wouldn't mind having those weapons in use in larger scale. But i'm only speaking for my self.

Ps. Neat looking latex weapons btw.
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Viesti Kirjoittaja Mannunvartija » Keskiviikko, 11.04.2007 17:40

Well, I guess, it is a stantard in Finland, that the tip of the weapon (sword, spear, arrow) must be so wide, that it won't fit in the eye socket.
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Viesti Kirjoittaja Archibald » Keskiviikko, 11.04.2007 23:01

Bernard kirjoitti:Still - I am kind of glad that the Finnish larp has not evolved to that level (don't be mistaken, no offense is meant - Estonian larp isn't either).
This is nothing new for me. The swedes were like "wft! silver baugettes" when I showed them video clips from 2005. Some were horrified while other thought it was kind of exotic. They all use latex and construct most by themselves, when here basically there is only one online store that sells them. And yes, latexdragon uses that horrible heavy rubber foam.

The thing is that we don't want latex even if it would be possible, but the most common arguments about this matter bases on that Sotahuuto is NOT a larp.


-a
Viimeksi muokannut Archibald, Torstai, 12.04.2007 02:08. Yhteensä muokattu 1 kertaa.
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Viesti Kirjoittaja Bernard » Keskiviikko, 11.04.2007 23:32

EDIT: After the correction of a honest typing error in the previous post, I have no more questions. Disregard the following:


Just out of curiosity: What makes latex weapons so unwanted in a Live Action Roleplaying Game?

(You say you don't want latex because Sotahuuto is a larp).
Viimeksi muokannut Bernard, Torstai, 12.04.2007 02:44. Yhteensä muokattu 1 kertaa.
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Viesti Kirjoittaja Gnomus » Keskiviikko, 11.04.2007 23:46

Actually Sotahuuto is not a LARP. Latexweapons are good for larps, if you anticipate fighting. Otherwise steel weapons are better.

Sotahuuto is fightingevent. Reasons for keeping latexweapons unfit for Sotahuuto is that latexweapons are quite expensive and heavy use in Sotahuuto could become quite costy. Latexweapons (finnish version with with heavy rubber) can also be quite painful when hit on a bare flesh but doesn't feel when hit on an armour. Latexweapons are also so fast that fighting degenerates quite badly IMHO
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Viesti Kirjoittaja BlueSkie » Keskiviikko, 11.04.2007 23:47

I think Archibald made a little typing mistake there, because Sotahuuto has been advertised as a boffer fighting event, not a LARP at all. Experiences with Finnish latex weapons haven't been very good when considering their suitability to heavy and long-term fighting they will be in in Sotahuuto. Thus, latex weapons have been considered nonrecommended and in the weapons rules draft of Sotahuuto 2007 latex weapons are banned altogether.
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Bernard
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Viesti Kirjoittaja Bernard » Torstai, 12.04.2007 00:04

Pity.

It's strange - here latex weapons are considered the best choice for larp and battles. Durable, light-weight (=safe) and beautiful.

(We don't draw such distinction (larp vs. battle) its all roleplaying for us. And therefore - unfortunately, you should expect some measure of roleplaying from our fighters e.g. "funny talk", "strange customs" etc.

But that doesn't mean we won't deal out some serious hurt if need be - and we can take more of that ourselves - and do it all day long.)


Still, your game, your rules. So no latex weapons. It's decided and I won't bring that up anymore.
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Viesti Kirjoittaja Azor » Torstai, 12.04.2007 00:16

As one of the last years organizators, I can say, that we were under the impression that (expensive) latex weapons tend to break against (cheap) boffers. We didn't specifically ban them nor did we encouncourage use of them. Last year the use of latex weaponry was insignificant, so it was logical that now they are banned alltogether (because no one uses them anyways in Sotahuuto).

Bernard mentioned "funny talk" from Estonian fighters. Actually in Sotahuuto 2005 there were a couple of "roleplaying groups" as well, Italian mercenaries being the most distinguishable. They had a humorous Italian accent (all the time) and as mercenaries they valued their lives more than their duties or the outcome of the battle. Also "the white mad monks" made their appearance in the event and the rumor has it that they will be back this year.

I gladly welcome roleplaying in Sotahuuto, but I also welcome those warriors, who are there only for the fight without any "gimmicks", if you will. One can contribute a lot to the atmosphere of the battle, or the event itself, with roleplaying.

EDIT: Hopefully there isn't an undertone in my post, that implies I think roleplaying is "funny". This wasn't my intention. I take my roleplaying very, very seriously. ;)
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Viesti Kirjoittaja Keisari_P » Torstai, 12.04.2007 01:42

I would like to learn how to make latex weapons. Is it expensive?
I understood that latex is just another way to cover the weapon besides duct tape. So I think well padded weapons shold be just fine regardless of the covering.
As there has been mentioned, Finnish latex swords are made using sellular rubber (not plastic) which makes them a lot harder than standard boffers made from sellular and foam plastic.

I think the standards might slide towards latex weapons, if there would be enough knowhow of making safe and durable latex weapons (cheap).
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Viesti Kirjoittaja Bernard » Torstai, 12.04.2007 02:04

Latex'ing weapons is no way cheap - that's the only downside. Besides actual material costs, it takes many-many hours to cover a weapon with latex.

For that reason I know of no latex weapon made on a PVC former - it would really be a shame if more than 40 hours of work (sculpting a masterpiece) would be in vain.

Still I think to mass produce using dipping, could prove out to be quite cheap in the end.

Anyway if you are interested in latexing, this should get you started:

http://home.clara.net/arianrhod/Aldebaran/DoItYourself/
http://www.melgir.demon.co.uk/lrp/make/weapon.html
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Viesti Kirjoittaja saloneju » Torstai, 12.04.2007 08:28

Bernard kirjoitti:Still - I am kind of glad that the Finnish larp has not evolved to that level (don't be mistaken, no offense is meant - Estonian larp isn't either). Otherwise it would be beyond our means to mass produce latex weapons for those numbers with whom we are trying to come.
The thing that must be pointed out in this point is that as finnish boffer culture has evolved quite independedly without the influence from ie Central-Europe, it is clear that the evolvement doesn't go necessarily to the direction where it has lead in that area. As saying this I mean that "evolving to that level" is quite a wrongly said - though finnish boffer culture may be a long way from what it is in Europe, here in Finland it also fills diffrent needs, and most likely doesn't want to evolve in that same direction. Diffrent needs, diffrent emphasises (or how do you say that word in plural?).

By filling diffrent needs I'm meaning that - as pointed before in this conversation - here in Finland Sotahuuto (which is The mayor event here, concerning anything with Boffers playing a mayor role) is considered kind of a sports event, with a hint of medieval. A clear mayority of the patricipants doesn't consider Sotahuuto as roleplaying - just having fun and bashing friends - but on the other hand, mayority thinks that slight roleplaying is good for the atmosphere. I don't remember any real percentages because I didn't find the corresponding thread at this moment, but if I remember correctly something like 75%-85% percent of the Sotahuuto patricipants here in forums stated being less - or not at all - a larper than "bofferer".

I think the reason for the distance here between larp and boffer cultures this is that as the larp-scene here in nordic is clearly one of the strongest in world, there is being a course of the development that boffer and larp-cultures are separating from each other more and more all the time. When people want to experience empathy, strong feelings etc. they go larping - and when people want just to kick ass and sweat they go boffering. Mixing these two things would feel lame on average finnish larper, though as I said - everyone agrees that bringing some roleplaying elements to fighting events like Sotahuuto is for good. Drawing a clear line between these two things - larping and boffering - has been lately actually quite a big issue.

By saying these things I believe that Keisari_P:s prediction that latex weapons would get more common if the know-how would be better, wont get valid; because the needs from the boffer cultures differ from the direction where it had lead, for example, in the mentioned Central-Europe. Also in overall point of view from finnish bofferer latex-swords are put in the category of the mentioned "elwish fighting" which is strongly discouraged here. Though we are not trying to fully simulate "a real battle" situation, the means for it are something that are pretty much valued here.

Though don't get me wrong. Here in Finland we really do not want to see Sotahuuto sliding to a pure sports-event with sports-covers etc. The atmosphere still plays an important role, but the emphasis is in the fighting and we take roleplaying elements etc. kind of lightly - because it feels best that way. Still the "funny talk" and "strange customs" you Bernard mentioned, is on the overall opinion the most welcome thing in the Sotahuuto! Though it's not obligatory, anyone who wants to create atmosphere with roleplaying elements are generally warmly welcomed!

And the last and most important of all: did anyone get anything from this disordered mumbling I wrote almost right from the bed? :oops:
Viimeksi muokannut saloneju, Torstai, 12.04.2007 15:01. Yhteensä muokattu 1 kertaa.
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Bernard
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Liittynyt: Keskiviikko, 04.04.2007 02:57
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Viesti Kirjoittaja Bernard » Torstai, 12.04.2007 12:22

I am very sorry, no offense was meant with the "evolved so far" - I shouldn't have formulated it like that. I am glad you do what you do, the way you do it. My apologies.
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Gnomus
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Viesti Kirjoittaja Gnomus » Torstai, 12.04.2007 14:00

Dear Estonians. I would like to know what kind of larping there is in Estonia. I think much of this fighting vs larping thing is semantics because of different kind of larping.

Disclaimer: This is generalization
In Finnish larp you get your character from gamemasters and your character have predestined personality, contacts, things of intrest and so on. If we would make Sotahuuto as Finnish larp we should make very large web of contact, who knows who and who are doing what. Why everyone has arrived and what are their motivation and objectives.

In few larps that concentrated in fighting there where problem of not having time to be your character and live his/her life because fighting take too big a part of time. Other problem was that some characters could get killed very early and that could do great harm to "plots" on other characters. You would also have problem of dead characters players. You could keep players of dead characters away from larp (it wouldn't be fun play for 15min get killed and then wait for hours to game end), resurrect them (it would be odd to meet your brother {in arms} after you have cryed for his death just moments before) or you could respawn players as fighters withtout much of a character, but soon all orginal "deep" characters would be gone.

Because of these problems Sotahuuto is "bofferfighting event", with as much larping as participant want to do. Organizers require only that your group have somekind of background story fitting for background story of current Sotahuuto (this far Albigensian crusade, Polish-Teutonic war and this years Hundred Years War), your equipment is not too odd (yellow t-shit or stormtrooper armour is out) and hopefully your group have recognisable outfit. As mentioned earlier several groups have distinguished identities and they act accordingly, but this is not required. You can come to Sotahuuto acting as much as you can or cou can just make hastily some kind of tabard for group, get boffers and start bashing your opponents without any larping as long as you don't do anything that would broke atmospeher (for example use battle cry "Coca-cola" or similar things).

I know Finnish GM generated characters are quite rare in central Europe, so this can make difference. Because we don't want to misinform our participant about what Sotahuuto is (there no GM generated characters and no personal "plots") we don't call it larp.

So how is these problems solved in Estonia?
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