Hand shots and injuries

Keskustelu taistelutekniikasta, taktiikasta, harjoituksista ja bofferoinnista yleensä.

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Hårdgrim
Asemies
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Liittynyt: Sunnuntai, 06.07.2014 17:47

Hand shots and injuries

Viesti Kirjoittaja Hårdgrim » Lauantai, 10.09.2016 18:27

Hi Finns,

We've been having quite a few thumb injuries recently (4 within a year, with around 10 people at fights per week). We've been discussing whether the Belegarth rule that hands on weapon are not counted as hits is increasing or decreasing hand safety. With the hands being safe, they can be used to safely block a blow ("punch blocking"), which might end up cause more damage to the hands.

Since you seem to be the only large battle gaming group that counts hand shots, I'd like to hear how the situation is with you and hand injuries, in particular the thumb (which is especially fragile). How often do you get hand injuries in fights, and do you usually wear protective gloves?

Thanks,
-Lars/Perial of Monachium

P.S. Pardon if this is in the wrong forum, the translator is being flaky.
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Nubbis
Herttua
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Liittynyt: Keskiviikko, 20.05.2009 12:59
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Re: Hand shots and injuries

Viesti Kirjoittaja Nubbis » Maanantai, 12.09.2016 10:21

Hi

I'd say serious hand-injuries are really rare here. One reason is probably that our boffers are so freakisly huge that they really don't get stuck on fingers. Another is that many use swords with well protecting handguards. Third, I'd say people really hate losing an arm over a finger-hit so we've learned to guard against those.

Regards :)
Robert

PS. We have the "International" section on our forum but for this subject this is the right area.
Uudenmaan Liitto - Reilua porukkaa; paskaa seuraa
Zenzu
Sotalordi
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Liittynyt: Keskiviikko, 29.08.2007 18:06
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Re: Hand shots and injuries

Viesti Kirjoittaja Zenzu » Maanantai, 12.09.2016 10:38

On the course of seven years of weekly fighting, I've seen only one dislocated finger that has resulted from direct hit. It came from a halberd strike to unarmed open hand. Injured fighter had only one sword and was holding his hand open. What kind of hand injuries are you experiencing? Dislocations or hairline fractures?

Intentionally blocking with hand sounds like a bit gamey move. :D
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ZamboNet
Rautasydän
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Liittynyt: Lauantai, 29.07.2006 14:37
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Re: Hand shots and injuries

Viesti Kirjoittaja ZamboNet » Maanantai, 12.09.2016 11:01

From experiences from Estonia and now from what you say, it's interesting to see that it seems that more you want to prevent injuries, less hit areas you should forbid with rules. In Estonia, where you are not allowed to hit people in head, people seem to use head (as it's not count as a hit) as a shield. Same goes with the hand rule in Belegarth. Which is in away understandable - people tend to maximize their efficiency within the boundries they are given. If it's allowed to shield your self with something (other than your weapon or shield), fighting technique tends to take that into account - making the initial purpose (safety in many cases) pretty much in vain. Sometimes even contradictary - you start actively using that forbidden hit area as a shield -> resulting more hits in it -> increased potential for danger (instead of decreased).

I've never seen (in my 15+ years) injury to a hand with which you are holding your weapon, but instead some "free" hand injuries (three I think). Then again these are pretty much the only injuries I've seen with melee that are not caused by terrain - so indeed hand is one of the more fragile targets, even with finnish rules.
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Hårdgrim
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Liittynyt: Sunnuntai, 06.07.2014 17:47

Re: Hand shots and injuries

Viesti Kirjoittaja Hårdgrim » Maanantai, 12.09.2016 23:18

Thanks for the replies. That matches my intuition, though I also think your hits are somewhat softer than ours.

The injuries we've had here have mostly been hits to the tip of the thumb, either pressing it backwards or downwards, which are not good directions to move a thumb.

Normally in Dagorhir and Belegarth, head hits are not counted, but neither do they incur a penalty. I've heard of Dagorhir realms where they added a punishment rule for headshots, like immediate death. That did indeed make some idiots use their heads as shields. The rule didn't last that long. Another group had more luck calling for pushups when somebody hit a head:)

Apparently, the Dagorhir/Belegarth rule is not just for safety, but also to avoid losing an arm to a hit on single a finger, which some people found silly.

-Lars
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JonTzu
Sotahuuto '11 -järjestäjä
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Liittynyt: Tiistai, 31.01.2006 20:27
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Re: Hand shots and injuries

Viesti Kirjoittaja JonTzu » Sunnuntai, 18.09.2016 01:26

In Finland we had big discussions about safety and hits to the head. The hand shots have been taken from 1990s. They haven't been a problem because parrying against hits to the hand has been taught widely.

A long time ago we had boffer tournaments where the head shots didn't count - and then there were fights where a guy who had been training with just these rules got about dozen hits to the head. The same problem arose in larps with latex/boffer fighting, people didn't shield their head and got hit there. The rules didn't seem to make things any safer, just sillier. Thus we began to count hits to the head. After that both hits to the head and injuries to the head went down in tournaments.

For the record: I have had two of my fingers broken with boffers. But then again, we used less padding on our boffers those days, only 2*8mm padding. And pvc and pe pipes we used were much heavier than the ones used in Finland nowadays. And come to think of it, we were a hard-hitting bunch. Lately I haven't had to cart anyone to hospital because of hits with either boffer or with shields. And no injuries because of locks or thrown metal chairs or tackles that threw people from bridges. Fun times, stupid times, but I think I like it better now! :wink:
"Harjoittelemalla hyvä tulee."
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olho
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Liittynyt: Tiistai, 26.09.2006 20:43
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Re: Hand shots and injuries

Viesti Kirjoittaja olho » Sunnuntai, 25.09.2016 16:46

I actually did hurt my right hand thumb while training. My grip for the weapon was a bit loose and the guard on that sword was pointing forwards, so no protection on sides. Opponent hit came straight down on my thumb twisting it downwards. Few years later it's still sore from time to time and can't hold weight as well as it used to.

So getting hand injures is still possible, but as far as I know they are rare.

Our rules are almost all about safety, so our main events (like Sotahuuto) are built around not needing any kind of safety gear and counting each hit no matter where they land and how soft they feel. I think that has driven people to practice a faster less powerful hits and also better parrying and active use of shields. On the other hand it has taken the fights away from their historical counterparts, which has caused some controversy between some groups within our community. I don't mind since I'm on the sport-side of the conversation.
Pahistonttu
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Liittynyt: Maanantai, 20.03.2006 21:56
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Re: Hand shots and injuries

Viesti Kirjoittaja Pahistonttu » Maanantai, 26.09.2016 21:58

Light and fast hits to the fingers are one of the most effective ways to win without lowering your own guard. That makes it a basic technique. You train against basic techniques, so avoiding strong fingershots is quite easy. I have been boffering competitively since 2006 and have never got so bad hit to the thumb that I would not have been able to continue after a short brake.
Hän, joka sitoutuu kunniaan on hävinnyt jo ennen taistelun alkua.
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